Thanks for your ideas Steve. I don't think this is a numerical problem. The R matrix is robustly positive-definitive and the four occasions of measurement are only moderately correlated. I can't see how to specify a cholesky R matrix-it isn't one of the obvious options. The UN R matrix is different with the time factor reversed but is simply reflected about the off diagonal, i.e., UN(1,1) becomes UN(4,4) and vice versa etc, but other than this transformation, it's the same structure yielding the same parameter estimates and I'd expect the df to be the same. While it's not very informative, I've replicated the effect fitting the same model using the SPSS mixed procedure which also offers Satterthwaite dfs - same results and same differences with reversed time. I plan to try a few other datasets to see how repeatable the phenomenon is. Andrew
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