About mike_bn

mike_bn · ‎03-24-2023

Yeah sure, but whatever levels of interactivity the Windows Env Mode has, it is still a distinctly different mode compared to the other modes, unlike 'batch mode' vs 'non-interactive' mode where it is somewhat unclear in the offical SAS unix doc what the exact definitions of those two modes are, as even the doc itself is contradictory, not all chapters describe the modes the same way. But as I mentioned, the SAS guys responsible for the doc plan to update all in that regard, to make everything correct and consistent everywhere. I am really pleasantly surprised that they gave my arguments some thought and did not discard them right away.

mike_bn · ‎03-23-2023

In case anyone is interested, I got in touch with a SAS employee who is responsible for this part of the SAS-doc (the chapters about different SAS modes, in particular the Unix companion). I outlined my reasoning why I think that talking about two different SAS modes in Unix, where one mode is called 'bacth mode' and another one is called 'non-interactive' modes is problematic for several reasons (in Unix!!, in don't know about the other OS, in other OS it might make sense). First off, keep in mind, that when you call one way of executing SAS 'batch mode' this mode will in most cases be non-interatcive as well (unless there are statements that require user input). So this is already confusing and raises the question whether it is a good idea to regard 'batch mode' and 'non-intewratcive mode' as two mutually exclusive different things. I think it is not a good idea because sometimes a job is BOTH. One more important thing is that if you call something 'batch mode' one first must come up with a precise definition what exactly a 'btach job' is. When you google it most of the time the definitions/scenarios described is the classical one of having multiple jobs (batch of jobs) which are scheduled by some job-scheduler or put in some 'batch queue' sorted by whatever priority criteria and then executed (automatically!). I feel most would agree that these jobs are then called 'batch jobs'. But if one single user is sitting in front of his unix shell window and MANUALLY types 'sas xxx.sas' or 'sas xxx.sas. &' and then hitting enter - can this be really called submitting a BATCH job? What is the batch of jobs this one job is part of? Or wouldn't it rather be tthe proper way to just call it 'manual execution of a sas job'? If you take the stance that even some manual shell submit from a user sitting in front of his pc is a batch job, then the consquence would be that there are only THREE different SAS modes and not four, like the offical sas doc says (in Unix )!. The three modes would be windows environment mode,interactive line mode and batch mode (and the batch mode would be non-interactive most of the time) Because what would be the way then to execute SAS in non-interative mode which is NOT also batch mode ? I can't think of any. The only way I can think of to really have 4 different SAS modes (Window Env Mode, Interactive Line Mode, Batch Mode, Non-Interactive Mode) is if you refuse calling a manual user submit of 'sas xxx.sas' or 'sas xxx.sas &' a batch job.Then this would be the non-interactive mode and batch mode would only be if the same command ('sas xxx.sas' or 'sas xxx.sas &') is submitted automatcially by some job scheduler (among many other jobs). In my mind personally, SAS only has three modes 1. Window Env Mode (sas -dms') 2. Interatcive Line Mode (sas -nodms) 3, Non-Interatcive Mode The third mode has 3 variations which are 3a. 'sas mysas.sas' manually submitted by a user -> sas is non-interactivley running in the foreground 3b. 'sas mysas.sas &' manually submitted by a user -> sas is noninteratcivley running in the background 3c. 'sas mysas (&)' scheduled by some job scheduler like cron --> sas is started automatically , and also runs non-interactively. If you desperately want to keep the classification of having 4 modes tin Unix (eg. to stay consistent with other OS), I feel that only 3c. should be the case that can be called 'Batch mode', but I could be wrong about that. In any way, SAS agreed with me that the current doc state needs to be optimized which they intend to do.

mike_bn · ‎03-21-2023

I got an email reminder about the topic, so I am posting one more time, hoping to be able to close this topic as solved soon. First off, Tom seems to be correct: sas -explorer only opens the Explorer Window. The doc about the system option https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/lesysoptsref/p0j0940tlhsl4dn10hqox4jlno4c.htm is simply wrong. The program editor does not open, even though the system option doc claims it does. It must be a mistake. In another chapter, the doc says that only the explorer window opens, just like Tom said. My final question is: Which windows open when I submit this command sas -noexplorer (and nothing else was changed, all options are set to the installation default values). The doc only states that SAS is invoked without the explorer window, which makes sense, but it does not provide the info which set of windows are actually opened. According to the doc of -dmsexp, dmsexp opens Explorer, Editor, Log, Output, and Results window and it says that dmsexp is set as installation default. Does that mean that "sas -noexplorer" opens all these windows except for the explorer window? Unfortunately I currently do not have the option to run SAS under Unix in the Window Envrionment Mode to test it myself, that's why I am asking.

mike_bn · ‎03-20-2023

Tom, all you wrote makes sense to me (If I understand it correctly). "I think the problem is the attempt make some distinction between a "batch" mode and a "non-interactive" mode" I totally agree, but SAS unfortunatley exactly doing that in its doc when it groups BASE SAS execution modes into 4 different types: Windows Environment mode, Interactive Line mode, Batch-mode and Non-Interactive mode. The more I think about it, this grouping is unfortunate and creates confusion. Alle the examples you gave about jobs that you would call batch jobs and job's you would not call batch jobs make me believe, when I submit 'sas xxx.sas' from the command line, I would call it just 'non-interactive mode' and when in addition it is scheduled, I would call it 'non-interactive mode running as a batch job'

mike_bn · ‎03-20-2023

Thank you Quentin for your answer! It is probably not worth wasting more of your and other responders time to dwell on that topic any longer, its just semantics, after all. Just two quick comments 1) As I stated multiple time, my question had nothing to do with interactive modes. I know how to invoke them and what they are. I just listed them for completeness sake. My question came up as in some chapters, the SAS doc explicitly states that (apart from interactive modes) two more DIFFERENT SAS execution modes exist: Non-interactive mode and Batch mode. Two different, distinct modes. So far, no user was able to give a clear answer if this is also true for Unix, and if yes, provide a precise defintion and how to invoke them. Which makes me assume it is not the case for Unix. Imo, in addition to the clear interactive modes (Windows Environment Mode and interactive line mode) there is only one additional third mode. This is invoked by 'sas mysasprg.sas' or 'sas -sysin mysasprg.sas' (plus potential options), either by submitting it from the shell command line or scheduled by some scheduler like Cron. If mysasprg.sas contains no statements that require user input, this mode is clearly non-interactive. Also the & is irrelevant, it only steers whether the process runs in the foreground or in the background. Whether you also always call this 3rd mode a batch mode or only if it is scheduled (by cron or some other scheduler) seems to depend on what your understanding of a batch job is. When I google 'what is a batch job' almost all definitions contain the point that a batch job is scheduled, but maybe there is no clear definition. 2) Your comments about DIS, EG, Studio etc. are all correct, they are interactive, but I am just talking about BASE SAS and the confusion about batch mode and non-interactive mode.

mike_bn · ‎03-20-2023

Hi Tom, thank for your patience and the replies. Before I started reading the SAS doc, my (rough) understanding of what a batch job is was similar to yours and I think many share this understanding. Unlike SAS it seems, I quote from this link: https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/hostunx/n0x9esc5c95qg4n1wogx5u2k7354.htm "To run SAS in batch mode, you specify your SAS program name in the SAS invocation command. You can run batch mode in the foreground, in the background by specifying an ampersand at the end of the SAS command, or submit your application to the batch queue by using the batch , at , nohup , or cron UNIX commands. (For more information, see the UNIX man pages for the batch , at , nohup , or cron commands.) If you start your application with one of these UNIX commands and you log off from your system, then your application completes execution. If your application contains statements that start an interactive procedure such as FSEDIT, then you need to run your batch application in the foreground or you need to specify the –noterminal option." and, in addition, for 'invoking SAS in batch mode' they provide this example ' you would enter the following command' sas weekly.sas -nodate -linesize 90 'The command would run the program in the foreground. If you want to run the program in the background, add the ampersand to the end of the command' sas weekly.sas -nodate -linesize 90 & So, for them, it is also batch mode. I am still inclined to agree with you and NOT call this batch mode, when I submit this command after logging in with some terminal emulator to the unix machine and typing this commands and hitting enter. What do you think about this understanding/definition: 1) sas noninteract.sas entered in the shell (after logging to the unix machine with some terminal emulator like SecureCRT) -> This starts SAS in non-interactive mode (lets assume noninteract.sas has no statements that require user input) 2) sas noninteract.sas & Same as 1) , so also non-interactive mode, with the only difference that because of the &, the process runs in the background 3) I have a shellskript noninteract.sh with just one command in it which is sas noninteract.sas And noninteract.sh is scheduled by crontab (or any other scheduler) -> SAS runs as a batch job (and is non-interactive - which typically is the case for any batch job)

mike_bn · ‎03-20-2023

Of course I am fully aware of the addtional modes 'interactive mode' and 'window environment mode' in unix. I listed them both in my first post for completeness sake. When I wrote just one mode (in Unix), I meant that bash mode and noninteractive mode are the same (in unix) and not two different modes and for that reason the doc sometimes call it 'noninteractive bash mode' (again: just talking about unix, on other OS (z/OS), there might be a difference between noninteractive mode and bash mode as in some parts the doc differentiates between these modes)

mike_bn · ‎03-20-2023

Thanks to all of you. I also feel that maybe a clear distinction between non-interactive mode and batch mode only exists in z/OS (which I don't know at all). As one of you said, 'non-interactive mode' is only mentioned in the general doc and in the companion for z/OS and not for unix/windows. I feel that in Unix, there is only batch mode, which is always non-interactive, in my opinion. Like one of you said, one could argue that if you submit the command in a terminal without & it is even 'more' non-interactive, because you cannot do anything at all, while with & you can continue working doing other stuff. But imo, the term 'non-interactive' refers to SAS, and not the terminal, and (in most cases) one cannot interact with the SAS-session you started with 'sas xxx.sas', no matter whether you used & or not. So I feel there is only one mode in Unix, which can be called 'non-interactive batch mode' and this is the exact term that is used in one chapter (see one of my links in my first post).

mike_bn · ‎03-19-2023

According to the official SAS documentation, SAS can be started in 4 different modes: 1. Windows Environment Mode 2. Interactive Mode 3. Batch Mode 4. Noninteractive Mode (Note that I am only talking about SAS 9.4 Foundation without any extensions like SAS/Connect or SAS/Assist etc) These 4 modes to run SAS are clearly stated here: Link1: https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/basess/n0m73k6z00uxp6n11imjuvxkaml4.htm Note that in this chapter, there are different sub-chapters for 'batch mode' and 'noninteractive mode'. This clearly implies that these are TWO DIFFERENT ways to run SAS. Problem is, I only know of three SAS modes, which are the following (I am talking about Unix as the Host System for the SAS Installation) 1) sas -dms Submitting this command in a shell invokes SAS in Windows Environment Mode. No questions here. I know what happens. 2) sas -nodms This invokes SAS in Interactive Mode. No questions here.I know what happens after submitting this command in a shell. 3) sas myprg.sas or sas myprg.sas & (background processing) According to some other chapters of the offical SAS- doc, this is the batch mode, see this link Link 2: https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/hostunx/n0x9esc5c95qg4n1wogx5u2k7354.htm Note that it doesn't matter whether the command is typed manually or scheduled by crontab, it is called batch mode in both cases. So the remaining question is: what EXACTLY is the 4th remaining mode (noninteractive mode) and how exactly do i start it in SAS under unix? Then again, SAS itself provides contradictory information. According to this chapter Link 3: https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/hostunx/n0x9esc5c95qg4n1wogx5u2k7354.htm there is NO DISTINCTION made between bash mode and noninteractive mode, in fact neither of them are listed, but instead there is a mode listed called "Non-interactive batch mode". So this could imply, there are in fact no 4 modes, but 3: Windowing Env. Mode, Interactive Mode and Batch Mode (which by nature is non-interactive). But then again, in a 4th chapter about all these modes, batch mode and noninteractive mode are documented as different modes again: Link 4: https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/basess/p1kxww6uew143an1rbqyopwl0bgx.htm This doesn't make sense to me. The only explanation is that Link 3 refers specifically to SAS under Unix, so maybe under unix there are only 3 modes, but on different OS, there are 4 modes? Can anybody enlighten me? What is the difference, if any, between bash mode and noninteractive mode? And how exactly do you start them in Unix? Please be specific, the explanations in the docs are too vague and 80% the same for bash mode and noninteractive mode. Thanks!

mike_bn · ‎03-17-2023

Typo in my point 2): I meant '... when I start sas with 'sas -noexplorer' (i mistakenly typed 'explorer')

mike_bn · ‎03-17-2023

Last question - and what happens if you start sas with 'sas -noexplorer'?

mike_bn · ‎03-17-2023

Interesting - maybe after startup you can check the values for these options with the proc options procedure? Or maybe the doc is simply wrong, would not be the first time.

mike_bn · ‎03-17-2023

Thanks a lot your for your reply, but its still not 100% clear to me: 1) You wrote: "If you start with -explorer then ONLY the explorer window opens." This is not true according to the doc, which says: 'specifies that the SAS session be invoked with only the Explorer and Program Editor windows'. So not only the explorer opens, but the program editor window as well. You can find this here: https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/lesysoptsref/p0j0940tlhsl4dn10hqox4jlno4c.htm 2) You wrote 'If you start with the -noexplorer option then exlporer window(s) are not open by default.' I know that. This is stated in the doc. Question was which OTHER winodws open when I start sas with 'sas -explorer' (and no other option). Do ALL windows open except the explorer window open (meaning editor, output, result, log open) OR does just the editor window open (-explorer opens editor window and explorer window, so it is reasonable to assume, that noexplorer excludes explorer windows, so editor window is left). If neither of those two alternatives are true, which windows open? The easiest of course would be to just start sas with "sas - explorer" or "sas - noexplorer' and just see. But I dont have unix available right now-

mike_bn · ‎03-17-2023

Hi all, I am sorry if this is the wrong section to post my questions, but I could not find a better one. Programming comes the closes in my opinion. I feel that the offical SAS 9.4 Unix doc regarding certain SAS system options to start SAS in Windows Environment Mode is not clear at all, to say the least. Unfortunately I don't have the option to test the behavior myself right now, so i am asking here. In general, the following Windows exist according to docs: Program Editor, Log, Explorer, Output, Results SAS has the following options to steer which of the Windows are displayed when starting SAS: DMS (shipping default SAS 9.4) or NODMS (NODMS can be ignored for my questions as it starts SAS in interactive line mode) DMSEXP (shipping default for SAS 9.4) or NODMSEXP EXPLORER or NOEXPLORER (shipping default for SAS 9.4) In https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/9.4_3.5/lesysoptsref/n1ag2fud7ue3aln1xiqqtev7ergg.htm the doc states that DMS, DMXEXP EXPLORER have the same precedence and 'if you specify more than one execution mode option of equal precedence, SAS uses only the last option listed'. So the first question is 1) What about NODMS, NODMSEXP and NOEXPLORER? Do they also have the same preference as the other three, as those options come in pairs? So when the doc lists DMS as having precedence of rank 4, would it have been more exact to list DMS/NODMS as having precedence of rank 4, as those options are a pair? Logically speaking, just in theory, it would be possible that DMS has rank 4, EXPLORER as rank 4 and NODMS has rank 5 (or no rank at all), when considering precedence. It seems unlikely, but I just want to be sure More questions are: 2) Lets assume I start sas from the command line with sas -EXPLORER According to the docs, EXPLORER starts SAS 'ONLY with the Explorer and Program Window'. But then again, DMSEXP ist set as default and makes SAS start with all 5 windos (in particular with Log, Output and Result). So what happens. Is -EXPLORER considered to be the last input (as DMSEXP is only set as default) so - having the same precedence as DMSEXP - it overwrites this and only the Explorer Windows and Programm Window open (even though DMSEXP is set as default) ? Or do any other windows open as well? 3) What is the effect of sas -NOEXPLORER According to docs, the NOEXPLORER option 'specifies that SAS session be invoked WITHOUT the Explorer Windows' while the EXPLORER option 'specifies that the SAS session be invoked with ONLY the Explorer and Editor windows'. So does 'WITHOUT' in the doc for the NOEXPLORER option mean that above command invokes SAS ONLY with the Editor window (and NO OTHER windows), taking as baseline 'Explorer and Editor' of the EXPLORER Option and removing Explorer due to the 'WITHOUT' exclusion? Or does mean 'WITHOUT Explorer Window' that ALL other windows except for the Explorer Window (Program Editor, Output, Log, Result Windows) will be opened (note that DMSEXP is set as default)? It would be great if anybody knows all this or has sas available and can quickly check what happens when sas is started in unix SAS-Windowing-Environment Mode with the commands listed in question 2) and 3) Thanks, Mike PS: And by the way, note that according to SAS docs shipping defaults are DMSEXP and NOEXPLORER which obviously cannot be true as it is a contradiction! According to the docs, DMSEXP includes the Explorer window and NOEXPLORER excludes it AND according to the doc these options seem to have the same precedence (see my link above) Logically a window cannot be included and excluded at the same type - so what happens if i start sas by just 'sas' -> is the explorer window opened or not?

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Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEX...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and SAS...

Re: Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEX...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEX...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

Re: What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and...

What exactly is the difference between SAS Noninteractive Mode and SAS...

Re: Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEX...

Re: Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEX...

Re: Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEX...

Re: Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEX...

Options to invoke SAS (Unix!) in SAS Windowing Environment (DMSEXP, E...