Poll: EG for programmers or not?

[nrose]

Hi again,

I am still no sure what it is in SAS EG and what SAS are doing that you cant accomplish alot easier than before. If you want to use the fat client SAS then you can still use your old code editor and SAS EG. You can write code as you always have, utilising the automatic code generating capablities to focus on more challenging tasks. You can still access your OS by making a simple registry change. You can still create macros, and extend them by including drop down menus to input parameters. With SAS EG 4.3 you will have intellisence type features to help you develop. You will also be able to call up projects and autoexecute processes which gives me alot of ideas about how to improve the modularisation of my programs. And there are ever more available .NET templates and how to guides for SAS EG that will make producing custom and user friendly programs accessable to SAS programmers.

Thus, whilst I do understand SAS not pulling the plug on the older features, SAS is doing what alot of companies are doing ; leverages current technologies to capture what more and more people expect - an easy to use and intuitive interface to their statistical analysis.

It has been an interesting discussion, and it will be interesting to see what the future holds.

Nick

[ChrisNZ]

.NET is windows only. Maybe good enough to build EG extensions, but not to replace SAS/AF processes. One of many good things about sas (including sas/af) is the Multi Vendor Architecture that allows the same program to run on a PC, a mini or a mainframe.

>I am still no sure what it is in SAS EG and what SAS are doing that you cant accomplish alot easier than before.

1) Well read this thread again to find all the things EG can't do but the DMS can. The list is long.
2)The list is even longer of things that you can do in EG, but it takes longer and/or runs slower, again many examples are provided above, together with 3) examples of features not available anywhere and simply missing.

>an easy to use and intuitive interface to their statistical analysis.
Indeed, EG is this and a bit more. Not an IDE.

Except for simple processes, point-and-click can only do so much, and can only do it so well. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

[nrose]

Final thought,

I have read your thread, and the deficiencies relate to a fraction of people using SAS, not to mention your misconceptions about numbered lines, accessing the OS, and being able to see catalogues (which you can with a downloadable custom task) SAS EG enables you to write code as normal, produce code using the custom tasks, produce code templates from the custom tasks which allow you to modify into macros, modularise your code (segmenting data output, and log for debugging), configure your windows including set up windows using a dual display, and with EG 4.3, will have intellisence, and other predictive code options. Not and IDE????

I think it comes down to the 80/20 rule - aim to please the 80% as the 20% are never satisfied.

Nick

[prholland]

> .NET is windows only. Maybe good enough to build EG
> extensions, but not to replace SAS/AF processes. One
> of many good things about sas (including sas/af) is
> the Multi Vendor Architecture that allows the same
> program to run on a PC, a mini or a mainframe.

.Net is Windows only, but there is Mono project on Linux etc that will run a lot of .Net functionality, so theoretically EG could be developed to run on other platforms. However, I would suggest you read my paper, which explains why it is Windows-centric, "Could Enterprise Guide have been written in Java?" at:
http://www.hollandnumerics.com/SASPAPER.HTM

> Except for simple processes, point-and-click can only
> do so much, and can only do it so well. You are
> deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Why, as a "real" SAS programmer, are you trying to use the point-and-click features? The editor up to EG 4.2 is the Enhanced Editor in the Windows SAS DMS, and has been enhanced further in EG 4.3. I use EG to work from home on UNIX servers in the UK (close to home) and the US with minimal speed differences and a familiar environment. I've been using SAS software since version 79.5, remember the introduction of SAS/AF in version 5, and I prefer the consistent interface in EG to the wild inconsistencies of the Windows and UNIX DMS. I support SAS's desire to make access to the programming features for the majority of users easier to learn and use.

The key question should be: Is SAS supporting EG and dropping DMS? The answer is No!

...........Phil

[art297]

Phil,

I don't think you have selected the right question, but I agree with your answer to the question you raised.

The question I think is more important is "since SAS is supporting both EG and DMS why do they appear to be devoting most of their resources toward EG".

When was the last improvement that SAS made toward SAS/AF?

Art

[ChrisNZ]

> aim to please the 80% as the 20% are never satisfied.

Nick, aiming at the messenger again hey? Not good for you karma. 🙂
Others and I have made quite clear what would make us happy, just because you disagree doesn't mean they are wrong.


>Not and IDE????
Not by a mile.
IDEs have long had core features like:
- Explorer, Ding, though you have to learn yoga to do things as simple as checking paths or copying attributes or seeing catalogs. Any chance of seeing formats (see paper from Randy Herbison for DMS yoga procedure)?
- Source Editor, Ding, in a small pane, and with some upcoming improved features.
- Debugger, Brrrp. Not even the old text-based DMS one that doesn't do macro lines.
- Data Viewer, Brrrp, unless you only want to see the first few rows and columns.
No subsetting, no column choice (or freeze?), no form view, that even good old viewtable object does.
- Source Code Management, Brrrp, not even code history.
- Performance Optimiser, Brrrp. Something called SCL Performance Analyzer came out over 15 years ago, then nothing.
- Run Analysis/Summary, Brrrp. One has to decipher all the log results with one's little hands.


>why do they appear to be devoting most of their resources toward EG
Indeed.

>The editor up to EG 4.2 is the Enhanced Editor in the Windows SAS DMS
No it isn't. See the OP(even if a few points have been fixed), and some of the subsequent comments.

>The key question should be: Is SAS supporting EG and dropping DMS? The answer is No!
That's not the way it looks. At all.
Will sas V10 have a DMS? Would anyone from sas promise it will?


Regardless, the DMS as it is could die tomorrow and if it is replaced by a proper development environment (which EG isn't, see above), then I won't miss it one bit.

This thread was not to be about EG vs DMS, it was meant to be about a replacement to the DMS aimed at developers, with the appropriate IDE features, which EG is not.

[prholland]

> This thread was not to be about EG vs DMS, it was
> meant to be about a replacement to the DMS aimed at
> developers, with the appropriate IDE features, which
> EG is not.

Chris,

Say SAS do create a brand new SAS IDE (SIDE), won't we then have a 3-sided argument: DMS ("I've got all my favourite DMS keyboard shortcuts that I don't want to lose") vs EG ("It may not be perfect, but I can work on remote servers from home") vs SIDE ("This is a really new IDE and different to anything we've used before")?

This thread could continue for decades!!...................Phil

[ChrisNZ]

>This thread could continue for decades!!...................

It could, except SAS Enterprise IDE tm ( I trademarked the name just in case ;o) has no reason not to have keyborard shortcuts, will be a client-server app since this is the reason EG is pushed, and will bring so many goodies users have long been clamoring for that they will embrace it.


I have a feeling that the difference in satisfaction with the push to EG might be due to the type of work done, and that the more one answers yes to the following questions, the more one yearns for a proper IDE.

Do you work in the IT department?
Do you spend a lot more time improving the efficiency of your process after it does what you want than to complete it in the first place?
Do you use macros all the time to make your code dynamic (as opposed to static: one process for one output)?
Do you run (batch) jobs that have tight time constraints?
Do you build/update datawarehouses/datamarts?
Do you create aggregated, or snapshot, or time-sliced tables, to be kept and used for years to come?
Do you create datasets (not reports/excel sheets) to be reported on by other users?
Do your reporting processes each create reports and charts by the hundreds?
Do you customise your graphics by using features like annotations, tooltips, drill-down?
Do you customise your reports by using features like drill-down, tooltips, style attributes or running proc template?
Do you do most of your data manipulation with data steps rather than procs in order to reduce the number of steps and use the efficiency of such features as views, arrays, hash tables, by-group processing, multiple outputs, regular expressions, etc?

My guess is that those answering many yeses (as I do) above will not be happy EG users.
My guess also is that sas institute developers would also have many yeses and don't use EG. Own medecine and all that...
Maybe I just made a rod for my own back... 🙂

[nrose]

I do all of that and more...and I use SAS EG.

GIve SAS EG a go - I dont think you have. Are you aware of the power and flexibility of SAS BI?

I am quite perplexed because SAS EG and SAS BI can do all of that efficiently - and if you are interested in improving data manipulation, then .NET has much more power and flexibility.

Point and click is a suplliment not a replacement in SAS EG. The best IDE's such as Visual Studio use point and click. Where have you been? Why are you not pressing for improving SAS EG rather than developing a whole new environment?

The reason there is no SAS IDE and never will is because there is no need to.

Can't wait for SAS EG 4.3 - the improvements keep coming.

Nick

[ChrisNZ]

>Point and click is a suplliment not a replacement in SAS EG. The best IDE's such as Visual Studio use point and click.

I have nothing against point-and-click at all. Point-and-click is great when it helps me rather than slow me down. Give a point-and-click debugger anytime. I like many of Visual Studio's features too. Give me Visual Studio's Team System in sas now.

>Where have you been?

Oops, you slipped again... 🐵

>Why are you not pressing for improving SAS EG rather than developing a whole new environment?

I don't care really. It is just that EG has been around for well over 10 years, was never aimed at developers until recently, and after all these years still lacks (or requires yoga to use) many essential DMS features. Let alone the many sas-specific features developers have very long been begging for (see sasware ballot) or the many features other IDEs (like Visual Studio) provide.

So now predictive typing is coming? Wow! How long will it take before EG can be compared to VS? I would like to see a radical catch-up. If it takes place in EG, which I still think would be counter-natural, why not, I'll embrace it, even though I believe end-users and developers need different tools (would you give Visual Studio and its groovy point'n'click to end-users? Thought so).

How you can bring VS in the debate and still advocate for EG is paradoxical imho.

Mmm, I hope my tone is still constructive, I only want to promote improvements. If not, apologies, it's been a long week for me here in Aotearoa. Have a nice week-end all. E noho rā.

[AdamT]

> Can't wait for SAS EG 4.3 - the improvements keep
> coming.

I just got EG 4.3 the other day and I'm really liking it so far, except that the SAS syntax help file was removed from the distribution... The mouse-over/pop-up help is certainly nice, but, because it's so brief, it's no replacement for the more detailed documentation that was there in EG 4.2.

So for whoever is keeping a list, please add "no integrated help documentation" to the list of things that a real IDE would have, but EG lacks.

[Franco]

The transition from SAS DMS to EG is not always easy, especially for Programmers/Developers who, through the years, have stretched the programming interface options and coding possibilities of SAS on the DMS environment (whether on Windows, Mainframe or Unix).

I know of some colleagues who still resist the passage to EG and insist on keeping a SAS/Desktop licence. For how long, who knows. The extra licensing cost will eventually work as a deterrent for them (and for the manager who pays the software bills). Some SAS sites do not use the DMS at all anymore, let alone SAS/CONNECT, so it's becoming a matter of 'adapting to EG or else' in many cases.

Having used SAS DMS for more than 15 years and EG for the last 3, I can relate to some of the challenges mentioned by Chris@NZ. I must say however, that I tend to use the DMS less and less, to the point that I spend most of my working day on EG. You get used to it. Like for every new software tool or interface, it requires adaptation and a mindset change.

For a start, Code Nodes in EG must preferably contain short chunks of SAS code instead of 1,000's of lines. The modular nature of EG allows for smooth code section sequencing, based on functional output. You can execute the lot or partially, at will. If you want the whole lot compiled into one big piece of code, EG does it for you under the 'File' -> 'Export All Code' option.

The lines on the Code Node Program Editor can be activated from the 'Tools' -> 'Options' -> 'SAS Programs' -> 'Editor Options' (button). However, no line-command editing 'a la ISPF' possble. Oh, well...

If you want to copy/paste a list of variables from a dataset, the quickest way is to do a 'Data' -> 'Dataset Attributes' an then pick them from either the resulting dataset or HTML outputs. Opening the SASHELP.VCOLUMN view is another option, but very slow to query (especially if your site has hundreds of libraries and datasets).

Library paths can be obtained by submitting 'libname [libref-name] list;'

The 'X' system command seems to work only when invoking .BAT files from specific server drives (using Drive letters local to the server, and not the UNC path notation). Execution level permissions must be allowed on such drive(s).

I haven't used EG 4.2 extensively yet (let alone 4.3), so I won't comment on the new features just yet. But I'm sure the goal is to make it as developer-friendly as possible. SAS's direction is clear: server-based solutions and very thin clients. So EG is here to stay and it will keep evolving. The same cannot be said about DMS on SAS/Desktop. So, I'd suggest the sooner you move from DMS to EG the better.

[deleted_user]

Franco: My experience has been very similar to yours. I have over 25 years experience using SAS in various configurations on various platforms. Yes it is a big change going from SAS-DM to SAS-EG but over time, the plus side of EG begins to overshadow the comfort of SAS-DM.

Your "tips" on line numbers, obtaining path names, and getting variable names via copy / paste are spot on.

For the X command, for deployments using an ObjectSpawner deamon on the Server side, include the -allowxcmd switch on ObjectSpawner startup. You can then further control who can use the x command by pointing different "types" of users to customized sasv9.cfg files if needed.

[art297]

Chris,

Many of us walked away from this year's SAS Global Forum, in Seattle, WA, with the same feeling of abandonment.

Peter mentioned how he was able to use SAS/AF, amongst other tools, to create some home made improvements to SAS.

SAS/AF happens to be why we don't use EG in my office. One of our principal production jobs is built in SAS/AF and EG doesn't support SAS/AF. And I won't jump on the soapbox to explain why I find it equally frustrating that more effort isn't spent on improving SAS AF and an interface for using SAS/Graph, or why it is assumed that we all support metadata libraries, or whether I think that the SAS ballot is really the best way for SAS to get feedback concerning which improvements its users feel are most needed.

Like any company, SAS is not going to be able to please everyone all of the time. However, I really think that it would do them well to try harder to please more of us more of the time.

That said, I've been a SAS user since 1974, but only started feeling abandoned over the past few months.

[SASKiwi]

One point not touched on in this very interesting thread is that if EG is the ONLY SAS interface on your desktop then you completely lose the ability to do local SAS processing.

There are many valid reasons for maintaining a full desktop SAS installation even if most processing is server-based. These include running local jobs when your server is heavily loaded, directly exporting/importing Microsoft files using SAS code to the desktop, and being a cheap Disaster Recovery option when your server has no DR plan. We run a lot of business-critical processes so we need this as a backup plan.

The side benefit of full desktop SAS is you maintain the flexibility of being able to use EG or DMS both for local and remote processing. The choice remains yours!